Pasty Madness Options

[CyanIsland]

In reality in Britain, there I'd say there are two classes these days-- those who have 'loadsamoney' and those who don't.

Same as in the US.

I'm sorry, but I think Roger is way-off with the British class system. It's much debated and somewhat controversial but the quality of your education, the way you speak and how you handle yourself are massive indicators of which 'class' someone theoretically belongs to.

Wikipedia's extensive article sums up the British class system pretty accurately.

Social structure of the United Kingdom

This post has been edited by CyanIsland: Apr 8 2012, 14:43

[lubi]

In reality in Britain, there I'd say there are two classes these days-- those who have 'loadsamoney' and those who don't.

Same as in the US.

I'm sorry, but I think Roger is way-off with the British class system. It's much debated and somewhat controversial but the quality of your education, the way you speak and how you handle yourself are massive indicators of which 'class' someone theoretically belongs to.

Wikipedia's extensive article sums up the British class system pretty accurately.

Social structure of the United Kingdom

Yep - totally agree. Once you get below the upper class (where money and heritage are the deciding factors), I'd say it's mostly education and values which distinguish people.

[Roger Mellie]

I'm sorry, but I think Roger is way-off with the British class system. It's much debated and somewhat controversial but the quality of your education, the way you speak and how you handle yourself are massive indicators of which 'class' someone theoretically belongs to.

Wikipedia's extensive article sums up the British class system pretty accurately.

Social structure of the United Kingdom

To be fair, I didn't actually make a comment either way about education or speech with regards to class-- as you rightly say yourself those facets are debatable/controversial: Does a working-class-background person who attends Oxford become middle-class? Does somebody from the gentry who has not got an RP accent suddenly become middle class? And so on.

I agree you have a point about education (certain schools are regarded as being the elite) and speech (PR regarded as posh). Certainly much is made about about the background of the current ministerial cabinet. I must say that in my everyday life I've not been, or witnessed class-prejudice in the workplace, based on schooling or accent; nor have my peers been held back by those things (I went to a comp in an unposh part of the world). It's heartening, given that I've worked in a variety of places with a broad cross-section of people. That's not to say it doesn't go on elsewhere though. Class only matters to lefties, who insist categorising people; and (inverted) snobs, who wish to have any excuse to look down on people

Your apology is accepted though, since I wasn't "way off" in what I *did* say about class. Nothing you say above refutes what I said in my last post, nor does your cited Wikipedia article refute what I said. What I said in my last post, is that officialdom now determines class in terms of job; indeed take a look at that Wikipeda article, under 21st Century ("now"), it talks of the Office National Statistics ("officialdom") and how it determines class..


1 Higher Professional and Managerial workers A
2 Lower Managerial and Professional workers B
3 Intermediate occupations C1 and C2
4 Small Employers and non professional self-employed C1 and C2
5 Lower Supervisory and technical C1 and C2
6 Semi Routine Occupations D
7 Routine Occupations D
8 Long term unemployed E

... thus "in terms of job".

(So in this sense, Parsy, it's analogous to white-collar, blue-collar etc in the USA?).

To call the majority of the public morons is "elitist snobbery" by definition; but I take your point about US elections and adverts, although isn't that more reflective of your politicians and advertising companies, rather than the public at whole? You are certainly not intelligent enough yourself, to note that Sanity's comment was ironic, if you reply: "Can I conclude that you believe that Britons and the British press should keep their noses out of American politics?"

Anyhow you're falling prey to your penchant for being American-centric; talking about the USA here, when this a British story . I know this a concept you struggle with; but common-sense would tell you that things aren't always the same the world-over as they are in the USA (in fact they usually aren't, think sport for instance, American football vs football elsewhere ). Some things are unique to certain countries-- pasties are a British institution-- you wouldn't get Greggs in the USA

This post has been edited by Roger Mellie: Jan 20 2013, 22:08

[Ollie2UK]

BTW the 'upper-class' can be decribed as chavs; I can only conclude that those who disagree, have not heard of chav parties A few years ago there was (still is?), a trend for chav parties, especially amongst the gentry; they were certainly popular in West Bridgford for a while, and you had all sorts of people from classes 'chavving it up'. I went to school with the son of a multi-millionaire stock, he was the biggest chav going! I'm sure I've read in the tabloids, Prince Harry (not known for working-class heritage) being accused of chavvy behaviour, on some of his more adventurous nights out. Indeed Kate Middleton is reported to have told Harry to stop behaving like a chavvy teenager, after jumping fully-clothed into a swimming pool in Croatia.

Chav parties are just appropriation of the term though. You could call them pikey parties if you wanted, but it wouldn't change the connotations attached to the term.

As for Harry being accused of "chavvy behaviour", well that's exactly my point. The newspapers are making the assertion that he's behaving in a way that is out of character for someone in his position - ie like a council estate chav. It's not a positive stereotype is it?

[Parsifal]

(So in this sense, Parsy, it's analogous to white-collar, blue-collar etc in the USA)

Roger, you misunderstand the US class system (and in the same way, perhaps the British class system).
In the US the class system is delineated approximately along these lines:
1. The 0.01%
2. The 1%
3. The 99% (this large group gives the illusion that the US is a classless society, but it's not. )
The 99% break out again approximately along education lines of whether or not a person has a college/university degree or not (although these days many graduates are serving lattes at Starbuck's). That delineation by education among the 99% approximates the split between white collar and blue collar, but it's the education factor that is the determinant because your parents have to be wealthy enough to send you to college/uni (or as one young fellow I know who recently graduated with an MBA and $150,000 in student loan debt).

[Roger Mellie]

As for Harry being accused of "chavvy behaviour", well that's exactly my point. The newspapers are making the assertion that he's behaving in a way that is out of character for someone in his position - ie like a council estate chav. It's not a positive stereotype is it?

In you last post, your point was that chav is a classed-based thing; your reasoning was that upper-class people would not be called "chavs", but be called "oiks/toffs" by the tabloids instead (confer your Gilmour example). I cited the example of Prince Harry being described as "chavvy" to counter this.

In the newspapers, the term "chav" was applying to Harry's behaviour, loutish drunken-ness; that is chavvy=drunken-loutishness. What makes you think he was being compared to a "council estate chav"-- was there a mention made to "council estate" in the papers or anything like that? If not, then you are the one being classist, by fallciously equating chavvy with council estate. As for "being out of character for his position"... well there's certainly no shortage of unruly behaviour by royals over the years! Besides I've seen tabloids label other well-known figure as "chavs/chavvy" for such behaviour, regardless of what background they come from, and again not mentioning council estates. "Chavvy" is merely to description of such behaviour, nothing to do with class; given that drunken loutish behaviour is classless (in both senses of the word ).

Chav parties are just appropriation of the term though. You could call them pikey parties if you wanted, but it wouldn't change the connotations attached to the term.

It wouldn't be the same thing, and would be a misappropriation of the term. I believe this has been your problem all along here: That you are conflating pikeys with chavs. Pikey refers specifically to those of a lower social-class (so you were correct there)-- but chav does not.

These Chav Parties are about people blinging it up, coming in their best Burberry, listening to gangsta rap, get drunk/lairy or showing off their souped-up Fiesta and Nova-- because they like doing so and that's who they are. And that's the idea: As Stulancs correctly indentified, chav is an aesthetic, a style, a pattern of behaviour; just like being a hippy, goth, mod, punk and so on; like them, chav has nothing to with class. In fact I have *the* book on chav culture, called Chav, by Mia Wallace & Clint Spanner. It takes a thorough look at the chav phenomenon, and what is to be a chav; in its 256 pages, there are no mentions of (working)class or council houses.

You only have those "connotations" of class, if you misunderstand that chav=working-class/council estate; therefore it's those who insist on fallaciously equating chav with being working-class, that are being 'classist' and are making the stereotypes. Not all working-class people are chavs, not all chavs are working-class. If anything chavs aesthetic is popularly adopted by the 'under-class', who don't work (I should know, because I deal with enough of them on professional basis!)

>>>
Parsy:
What about that terms "white-collar workers", "blue-collar workers"? Are these not terms of class? Sincere question, since you are grouping people in terms of socio-economics with those terms.

My point was that *officially* in Britain, in terms of government classification at least, that class is determined by job. Despite the patronising claims that I'm "way off" and I "misunderstand" this-- nobody has refuted me on this (I suggest other people examine their own (mis)understandings of class, before dismissing me ). So does the American government split workers in similar categories I cited in my earlier post (genuine question)?

The UK is no more class-bound than the US-- simply better at signifying how the system works. The paradox is that as the gap between rich and poor has increased over recent decades, so too have the number 'working-class' among the super-rich, as pop stars and footballers joined the elite. There's an assumption is that we are uniquely class-divided, but whereas this is nonsense: Everywhere has a class system; but it's our 'obsession', in the sense that race is the American obsession.

All these theories about class, education, jobs is all very fine; however I feel it's largely archaic in modern Britain. Class is only important those who find it important. My critics here ought to put aside scehma, open their eyes and look at the bigger picture of C21st Britain. I firmly believe (again nobody has refuted my earlier reference to this), that in pratice there actually three classes in Britain: 1) The self-interested elite, the owning-class 2) Welfare dependent 'underclass' 3) The vast bulk of people in between, the borrowing class, who are often taken for a ride by 1 & 2!

It's only really an obsession with the left: Either to engender divide-and-rule, or to bash the Tories (even the Labour frontbenchers are well-heeled, from comfortable backgrounds and nice shools.)

This post has been edited by Roger Mellie: Mar 31 2013, 17:14

[Parsifal]

Parsy:
What about that terms "white-collar workers", "blue-collar workers"? Are these not terms of class?

The terms "white collar workers" and "blue collar workers" exist within the realm of the 99%. That's like living 2 dimensions in a 3-dimensional world. The shots are being called from the other 1% (and perhaps the 0.01%).

My point was that *officially* in Britain (in terms of government classification at least), that class is determined by job. Does the American government split workers in similar categories I cited in my earlier post (genuine question)

Again, the terms "job" and "workers" exist within the realm of the 99%.

The driving forces and many of the rules in this country come from the 1% or the 0.01%.
The drive for low taxes and deregulation in this country comes mainly from the 0.01% because they no longer want to pay for services which they don't use (e.g. free public education, transportation subsidies, employer contributions to social security and Medicare, services for the needy and the poor, etc., etc.). And it looks like they're going to get their way.

[lubi]

My point was that *officially* in Britain, in terms of government classification at least, that class is determined by job. Despite the patronising claims that I'm "way off" and I "misunderstand" this-- nobody has refuted me on this (I suggest other people examine their own (mis)understandings of class, before dismissing me ). So does the American government split workers in similar categories I cited in my earlier post (genuine question)?

Isn't that the point? The way the government "classifies" people isn't necessarily the same thing as social class.

[Roger Mellie]

My point was that *officially* in Britain, in terms of government classification at least, that class is determined by job. Despite the patronising claims that I'm "way off" and I "misunderstand" this-- nobody has refuted me on this (I suggest other people examine their own (mis)understandings of class, before dismissing me ). So does the American government split workers in similar categories I cited in my earlier post (genuine question)?

Isn't that the point? The way the government "classifies" people isn't necessarily the same thing as social class.

I quite agree-- it isn't necessarily the same. The point is, I've never denied this; I concede I did not mention certain definitions of class, but omission is not the same as denial. Also the point is, what I did write on the British class system was dismissed; even though these criticisms have not refuted what I did actually write on the matter, nor did the extensive Wiki article supplied.

There are many indicators of class, the comment of mine (you cite) was to illustrate *one* of them: I was merely observing that *officially* (in terms of government), class is determined by which job you do-- your "socio-economic" class to use National Office of Statisitcs terminology (note the prefix). Others may wish to dismiss this as "misunderstanding" or being "way-off" about class in this country, but it fallacious to do so; because whether they like it or not, it is a measure of class that is actively used by those who govern this country. Indeed the earlier Wiki article, purported to give a "pretty accurate" explanation on class, actually confirmed this and even gave the classes.

This post has been edited by Roger Mellie: Apr 10 2012, 17:20

[Roger Mellie]

[Erroneous post]

This post has been edited by Roger Mellie: Apr 22 2012, 13:52

[Humpty Dumpty]

the Daily Telegraph 28/5/2012 reports:

George Osborne backs down on pasty tax

"Pasties and other bakery items will no longer attract Vat if they are “cooling down” after being removed from the oven.

The Chancellor controversially proposed in the budget that any food served above ambient temperature would be taxed at 20 percent to address an “anomaly” in the system.

However, the proposal sparked protests from bakeries and others who claimed it was an unfair tax on millions of working-class Britons who enjoyed pasties and pies for lunch. A tabloid newspaper hired an actress dressed as Marie Antoinette to follow Mr Osborne in an attempt to demand a rethink.

Mr Osborne wrote to Andrew Tyrie, the chairman of the Treasury select committee, to confirm the climbdown.

He also said that plans to tax static caravans at 20 percent will be altered. They will now attract Vat at a reduced rate of five percent from next April. Static caravans do not currently attract any Vat. "


Is this a sensible rethink of a policy or a U turn, that woud make the arch U-Turner Sir Edward Heath turn in this grave? I suspect that George may well be in line for the prestigious award of the Order of St Greggs of Geordieland (3rd Class).

[KernowKid]

Not a climbdown at all. virtually all Pasties will still attract the tax. They are sold from Heated Cabinets.

[duxk]

It seems the pig ignorant tosspots at the New York Times are spouting about it.

(Note that it is acceptable for our gutter press to get in a tizzy, but the american gutter press should keep their noses out.)

They ramble on and on about Osborne and Cameron being posh, as if that is relevant, and then accuse the British of being class-obsessed. Oh, and they seem to thing that pasty rhymes with nasty.

Pasty does rhyme with nasty, if one is not from the south

Given that the price of a properly constituted meal sized Pasty now is around £3.20, post VAT this rises to £3.85, hence the fuss.

Suggestions seem to be being made locally that there is movement on this issue and that the proposals are likely to be somewhat different that those outlined in the Budget, which were put out 'for consultation' only with a target of October 2012 enactment. Expect a delay in implementation to April 2013 and significant changes in the scope.

It's an excellent piece of politics- it's taken the attention off the granny tax and the extra £10 billion in welfare cuts, it will be dropped or watered down soon- job done. Never under-estimate the cunning of Gideon, he knows what he's doing.

Colour me surprised....

[Parsifal]

"Pasties and other bakery items will no longer attract Vat if they are “cooling down” after being removed from the oven.

[stevo]

[sanitynotincluded]

That graphic, demonstrating quite simply when and where VAT applies, nicely proves the point of my original post.

the BBC are trotting out this ridiculous notion ... that it is somehow too difficult for shops to decide whether they have sold a hot or a cold devonian pasty.

[stevo]

Why can't people enjoy cocktail sausage rolls cold, along with a nice Montepulciano Rosso Madregale instead of this plebeian hot pasty eating, out in the street?

[sanitynotincluded]

cocktail sausage rolls

How very Hyacinth Bucket.

[Roger Mellie]

Why can't people enjoy cocktail sausage rolls cold, along with a nice Montepulciano Rosso Madregale instead of this plebeian hot pasty eating, out in the street?

I imagine Dave finds that very oikish

[howsithanginNC]

It's no secret that the majority of the public are indeed a bunch of morons.
How else could Fox News survive?

How about CNN, MSNBC, PBS, NPR, ABC, CBS, NBC, TIME, NEWSWEAK, NYT, WAPO... all of 'em simply read off of the same sheet of WH-prepared and approved talking points, and the many are too stupid to figure it out.