Pasty Madness Options

[sanitynotincluded]

It seems the pig ignorant tosspots at the New York Times are spouting about it.

(Note that it is acceptable for our gutter press to get in a tizzy, but the american gutter press should keep their noses out.)

They ramble on and on about Osborne and Cameron being posh, as if that is relevant, and then accuse the British of being class-obsessed. Oh, and they seem to thing that pasty rhymes with nasty.

[Parsifal]

(Note that it is acceptable for our gutter press to get in a tizzy, but the american gutter press should keep their noses out.)

Can I conclude that you believe that Britons and the British press should keep their noses out of American politics?

[duxk]

It seems the pig ignorant tosspots at the New York Times are spouting about it.

(Note that it is acceptable for our gutter press to get in a tizzy, but the american gutter press should keep their noses out.)

They ramble on and on about Osborne and Cameron being posh, as if that is relevant, and then accuse the British of being class-obsessed. Oh, and they seem to thing that pasty rhymes with nasty.

Pasty does rhyme with nasty, if one is not from the south

Given that the price of a properly constituted meal sized Pasty now is around £3.20, post VAT this rises to £3.85, hence the fuss.

Suggestions seem to be being made locally that there is movement on this issue and that the proposals are likely to be somewhat different that those outlined in the Budget, which were put out 'for consultation' only with a target of October 2012 enactment. Expect a delay in implementation to April 2013 and significant changes in the scope.

It's an excellent piece of politics- it's taken the attention off the granny tax and the extra £10 billion in welfare cuts, it will be dropped or watered down soon- job done. Never under-estimate the cunning of Gideon, he knows what he's doing.

[stevo]

They ramble on and on about Osborne and Cameron being posh, as if that is relevant

Perhaps they'd ramble on less if Dave hadn't tried to force down a foodstuff he'd hitherto never sullied his connoisseur lips with, then invent a prior culinary experience with a pasty manufacturer which had gone out of business several years before.


"Dear God, do I need to swallow now?"

This post has been edited by stevo: Apr 1 2012, 23:30

[Parsifal]

Perhaps they'd ramble on less if Dave hadn't tried to force down a foodstuff he'd hitherto never sullied his connoisseur lips with, then invent a prior culinary experience with a pasty manufacturer which had gone out of business several years before.

You make him sound like Mitt Romney.

[sanitynotincluded]

Pasty does rhyme with nasty, if one is not from the south

It doesn't if one is civilised.

Perhaps they'd ramble on less ...

I think you missed the point. They label Britain as class obsessed, but it is only them and the moron fringe of the labour party who care about it.

[stevo]

I think you missed the point. They label Britain as class obsessed, but it is only them and the moron fringe of the labour party who care about it.

...And funnily enough those who care about it least of all are people for whom privilege puts it off their radar. Enter Dave and Gideon.

[sanitynotincluded]

I think you missed the point. They label Britain as class obsessed, but it is only them and the moron fringe of the labour party who care about it.

...And funnily enough those who care about it least of all are people for whom privilege puts it off their radar. Enter Dave and Gideon.

Not really, it's only the moron fringe and their fellow travellers who get their tits in a twist about having a posh prime minister, and then only if they don't like the individual's party

[Ollie2UK]

Not really, it's only the moron fringe and their fellow travellers who get their tits in a twist about having a posh prime minister, and then only if they don't like the individual's party

Funnily enough, it's usually the Tory boys who most loudly deny that the class structure still exists.

[Parsifal]

Not really, it's only the moron fringe and their fellow travellers who get their tits in a twist about having a posh prime minister, and then only if they don't like the individual's party

Funnily enough, it's usually the Tory boys who most loudly deny that the class structure still exists.

Does it? (I keep hearing mixed comments on the subject.)

[Ollie2UK]

Does it? (I keep hearing mixed comments on the subject.)

Not to the extent that you read about in Jane Austen novels, but yeah of course it does. It's not so much about occupation and income nowadays (although it can be), it's more a cultural and sociological thing.

Check out how many people use the words chav or pikey on this forum alone. We're still mired in stereotypes that relate directly to perceptions of class, however much some people would like to pretend we're not.

[Parsifal]

There's been talk about an emerging class divide in this country (US) based on the "haves" and "have nots". There's not total agreement, but many say that the delineating factor is becoming whether or not you have a college/uni degree.

In truth there always has been a class division in this country, it's just that it's becoming wider and more apparent and the social stresses related to joblessness (and a college degree) are highlighting it more and more. The "Occupy" movement is part of this emerging consciousness.

[stulancs]

Not to the extent that you read about in Jane Austen novels, but yeah of course it does. It's not so much about occupation and income nowadays (although it can be), it's more a cultural and sociological thing.

Check out how many people use the words chav or pikey on this forum alone. We're still mired in stereotypes that relate directly to perceptions of class, however much some people would like to pretend we're not.

Calling someone a chav is based on their behaviour, not their social class, otherwise all working class people would be chavs, and they're not.

[Ollie2UK]

Calling someone a chav is based on their behaviour, not their social class, otherwise all working class people would be chavs, and they're not.

Chav is generally directed at someone who exhibits a certain kind of behaviour associated with - let's not pretend otherwise - council estate dwellers. You won't see many toffs being labelled as chavs, even if they behave in exactly the same way.

To say that the term chav isn't associated with class simply because it isn't a blanket term used to describe all members of a particular class is ridiculous.

[sanitynotincluded]

Calling someone a chav is based on their behaviour, not their social class, otherwise all working class people would be chavs, and they're not.

Chav is generally directed at someone who exhibits a certain kind of behaviour associated with - let's not pretend otherwise - council estate dwellers. You won't see many toffs being labelled as chavs, even if they behave in exactly the same way.

To say that the term chav isn't associated with class simply because it isn't a blanket term used to describe all members of a particular class is ridiculous.

As he said however it is a behaviour based label. Class is a pathetic smokescreen used to try and excuse bad behaviour. Oh, guess what, a non tory disputing the continued relevance of class in modern society. I guess that one doesn't run either.

[Ollie2UK]

As he said however it is a behaviour based label. Class is a pathetic smokescreen used to try and excuse bad behaviour.

I'm not attempting to excuse bad behaviour at all. My point is that a working class/council estate dweller is labelled a chav if they behave in a certain way. An upper class person, behaving in exactly the same way, isn't.

Take Dave Gilmour's son, who famously got pissed, drugged up, and dangled off the Cenotaph. If he came from a working class background, he'd be labelled a chav. Instead, the papers were falling over each other to call him a toff and an oik (which is just as class-orientated as if they had called him a chav incidentally).

Oh, guess what, a non tory disputing the continued relevance of class in modern society. I guess that one doesn't run either.

Well, you could try reading what I wrote instead of what you'd have liked me to write, but then that's never been your style.

Funnily enough, it's usually the Tory boys who most loudly deny that the class structure still exists.

[duxk]

Calling someone a chav is based on their behaviour, not their social class, otherwise all working class people would be chavs, and they're not.

Chav is generally directed at someone who exhibits a certain kind of behaviour associated with - let's not pretend otherwise - council estate dwellers. You won't see many toffs being labelled as chavs, even if they behave in exactly the same way.

To say that the term chav isn't associated with class simply because it isn't a blanket term used to describe all members of a particular class is ridiculous.

As he said however it is a behaviour based label. Class is a pathetic smokescreen used to try and excuse bad behaviour. Oh, guess what, a non tory disputing the continued relevance of class in modern society. I guess that one doesn't run either.

i guess stating that rhyming pasty and nasty making one uncivilised was a joke then?

[Roger Mellie]

Parsy, an introduction to VAT, from Her Majesty Revenue & Customs:
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/vat/start/introduction.htm

As Sanity correctly pointed out, our party leaders can chatter about the pasty-tax all they like, there's nothing we can do about, EU ruling. So it's a handy distraction for all the unpopular financial policies the Westminster folk can control, confer The Budget last week

When you're shopping in the UK, VAT is also include in the 'shelf price'. I found when I bought stuff in the USA I found the shelf price did not include sales tax. Is this still true generally? What's the policy in NY State?

As for the class thing:

We no longer have the class-structure that is stereotypical of Britain (Austen, is somebody commented earlier), as the left-wing 'divide and conquer' types would have us believe. Royals date now date those who are 'middle class' (Mike Tyndall, Kate Middleton). The tradtional working-class has largely disappeared, those working-class jobs that are left often earn more than middle-class professions (an plumber can easily out-earn a teacher); as Tony Blair once commented: "We're all middle-class now". To a large extent he was right.

I can say that in my daily business, class is never raised in everyday conversation. I don't even know what class I'd be, nor do I care. In officialdom, 'class' is the same as it is in (most) other developed nations, it goes on what sort of job you do/earnings. In reality in Britain, there I'd say there are two classes these days-- those who have 'loadsamoney' and those who don't.

BTW the 'upper-class' can be decribed as chavs; I can only conclude that those who disagree, have not heard of chav parties A few years ago there was (still is?), a trend for chav parties, especially amongst the gentry; they were certainly popular in West Bridgford for a while, and you had all sorts of people from classes 'chavving it up'. I went to school with the son of a multi-millionaire stock, he was the biggest chav going! I'm sure I've read in the tabloids, Prince Harry (not known for working-class heritage) being accused of chavvy behaviour, on some of his more adventurous nights out. Indeed Kate Middleton is reported to have told Harry to stop behaving like a chavvy teenager, after jumping fully-clothed into a swimming pool in Croatia.

It's no secret that the majority of the public are indeed a bunch of morons.

Oh the irony Clearly the folly of pretention, is a secret to you Normally I'd be inclined to say that to make elitist-snob statements such as that ^ is not exactly enlightened "moronic" and is a self-selecting view: Then again if you're talking Fox News, which broadcasts to USA, then you may well be right. Given that you are American and have lived there extensively, I'll leave you to make that call

Unlike Fox News the BBC exists, because we are obliged to pay for it, so the BBC has the luxury of being biased and patronising as it likes. However I don't believe the British public are not so easily led, Cyan's (rightful) attitude towards the BBC is by no means uncommon, and in my experience many take the BBC News's output with the same pinch of salt. Google "BBC bias" you'll see what I mean (even Andrew Marr and Peter Sisson, both veteran broadcasters with the BBC, have admitted bias)

The British culture for, and mass consumption of, satire shows the British public aren't completely bunch of morons-- and more sceptical/questioning. In my experience nobody I knew was going to filling stations like lemmings to get fuel; they were genuninely puzzled by the panic-buying, realising that tankers were still delivering, and that Cameron probably said it for a nice windfall before the financial year closes. And I think most people realise that pasties are not particularly good for you, and don't subsist on them

This post has been edited by Roger Mellie: Jan 20 2013, 22:06

[deegee178]

When you're shopping in the UK, VAT is also include in the 'shelf price'. I found when I bought stuff in the USA I found the shelf price did not include sales tax. Is this still true generally?

I'm not sure about the price shown in the actual physical shop but certainly online it is true. Taking Apple as an example, the price shown online excludes sales tax initially and this is then added when you click 'buy' and add in your zip code (sales tax varies by state).

I think this distorts the price difference between the UK and US and makes it appear bigger than it actually is as people tend to get the US price looking online and forget to add the tax!

[Parsifal]

When you're shopping in the UK, VAT is also include in the 'shelf price'. I found when I bought stuff in the USA I found the shelf price did not include sales tax. Is this still true generally? What's the policy in NY State?

I already knew that having been to Europe many times. New York State has a sales tax such as you describe. In addition, two cities in NYS have their own sales tax, New York City and Yonkers. The combined sales tax in NYC is 8.875% which gets slapped on many (most?) things that you buy and is thus a tax on production (as is VAT regardless of what the law is).

In reality in Britain, there I'd say there are two classes these days-- those who have 'loadsamoney' and those who don't.

Same as in the US.

Indeed Kate Middleton is reported to have told Harry to stop behaving like a chavvy teenager, after jumping fully-clothed into a swimming pool in Croatia.

She was right. He should have jumped into the pool naked (with papparazzi taking photos).

It's no secret that the majority of the public are indeed a bunch of morons.

Oh the irony Clearly the folly of pretention, is a secret to you Normally I'd be inclined to say that to make elitist-snob statements such as that ^ is not exactly enlightened "moronic" and is a self-selecting view: Then again if you're talking Fox News, which broadcasts to USA, then you may well be right. Given that you are American and have lived there extensively, I'll leave you to make that call

As a matter of fact I did have Fox News in mind along with other sources of misinformation that goes out to the gullibles.

It's not elitist-snob at all. To see the truth in that statement just have a look at our elections and TV advertisements.