The US Presidential Election 2012, we're off ... we debated ... and it's finally over. Options

[jazze]

I am not right-wing or left-wing.

I believe in the goodness of people and the beauty of freedom. and because absolute power corrupts I want the government to be as weak as possible.

"When the people fear the government, you have tyranny.
When the government fears the people, you have freedom."

[Parsifal]

I think jazze is more of an anarcho-syndicalist (and therefore, by definition, quite far left of centre) than a "right-wing nut-job". Anyway, he brightens up these threads....and I think he might agree with your unproven oligarchical conspiracy to run the US as a capitalist theme park theory.

Many prominent and respectable names hold the same view.
Statistics on the concentration of wealth over the last 30 years bear out the facts. You have to be very dense to not see through some of the legislation that gets passed these days.

I believe in the goodness of people and the beauty of freedom. and because absolute power corrupts I want the government to be as weak as possible.

That's all fine and good. Very idealistic.
But when the government is as weak as possible then who is going to protect the public from the predators and save the environment from the pillagers?
It will all work fine if everyone is nice and honest and no one is greedy, you marry a nice girl and raise a large family to support you in your old age. Let's hope that you are never unemployed and never incur expensive medical costs because there will be no NHS.
Sounds nice.

[jazze]

That's all fine and good. Very idealistic.
But when the government is as weak as possible then who is going to protect the public from the predators and save the environment from the pillagers?
It will all work fine if everyone is nice and honest and no one is greedy, you marry a nice girl and raise a large family to support you in your old age. Let's hope that you are never unemployed and never incur expensive medical costs because there will be no NHS.
Sounds nice.

Everyone is greedy, its natural. But in a free society if you want more you have to do something that someone else wants. You can't steal things like the government can.

I would still have some government, but their only role would be to protect the rights of citizens in the constitution.

Do you realise how much tax you pay? You would have probably twice as much money if you didn't pay tax and there is this concept called "saving"

For unforseen health problems there is insurance. Insurance CAN work, it doesn't have to be as bad as the broken US health insurance system.

Anyways. Back on topic.

I think Obama is gonna win no matter what. He has 71%+ approval amongst blacks and latinos no matter what and the possible republican candidates are all rubbish.

Also obama is definately gonna win Florida, Cali, Michigan and without michigan and florida I don;t think any republican can win

[Parsifal]

November 2012 is a long way off. A lot can happen between now and then. It's way too early.

[sanitynotincluded]

I think Obama is gonna win no matter what. He has 71%+ approval amongst blacks and latinos no matter what and the possible republican candidates are all rubbish.

Also obama is definately gonna win Florida, Cali, Michigan and without michigan and florida I don;t think any republican can win

Democrats win the black vote by about 10 to 1. It fluctuates by a point or two, but never significantly. This is offset by the fact that black voters make up a small proportion of the total population (13%) and that they traditionally have a much lower turnout than other demographic groups. Black voters turned out in atypically large numbers in 2008 due to the presence of the first black candidate, but the history has happened. Whether that will have the same draw again is uncertain. The likelihood is that black turnout will be above normal levels but below 2008.

Hispanics (and indeed asians) tend to be a much less monolithic block. 2010 exit polls suggest that the republicans won 38% of Hispanics and 40% of asians. Polls have Obama's support among hispanics between 55% and 70%, but it is worth noting that it varies massively from state to state. In 2010 republicans only received about 30% of hispanic votes in California (Obama wins whatever) and Texas (Obama would still lose if the Republicans nominated satan) but they got 50% in Florida which is a swing state.

Add to that that Obama's approval ratings amongst whites are flatlining in critical territory and he's not in very good shape at all.

As for Republicans winning without Florida and Michigan, Bush 43 lost Michigan twice, Bush 41 amd Reagan could have lost both Florida and Michigan and still won, Nixon lost Michigan, and he could have lost Florida as well and still won, Eisenhower could have lost both of them and still won, Hoover could have lost both and still won, Coolidge lost Florida, and could have lost Michigan as well and still won, likewise Harding, Taft, Roosevelt and McKinley.
Obviously the electoral value of the states was different in times gone by, but while Florida has become a vital state for Republicans, if the democrats are having to draw the battle line in Michigan then they have already lost.

As for Obama "definitely going to win Florida" I would draw your attention to the latest Quinnipiac offering

Majorities disapprove of the job he is doing and say he doesn't deserve a second term and he trails a generic republican. If you can only get 38% against a generic opponent and only 42% say you deserve another term then I wouldn't make too many non refundable plans for the victory party.

The numbers look better for Nelson, but 43% is hardly inspiring for an incumbent.

[AdrienAsche]

That's all fine and good. Very idealistic.
But when the government is as weak as possible then who is going to protect the public from the predators and save the environment from the pillagers?
It will all work fine if everyone is nice and honest and no one is greedy, you marry a nice girl and raise a large family to support you in your old age. Let's hope that you are never unemployed and never incur expensive medical costs because there will be no NHS.
Sounds nice.

Everyone is greedy, its natural. But in a free society if you want more you have to do something that someone else wants. You can't steal things like the government can.

I would still have some government, but their only role would be to protect the rights of citizens in the constitution.

Do you realise how much tax you pay? You would have probably twice as much money if you didn't pay tax and there is this concept called "saving"

For unforseen health problems there is insurance. Insurance CAN work, it doesn't have to be as bad as the broken US health insurance system.

Anyways. Back on topic.

I think Obama is gonna win no matter what. He has 71%+ approval amongst blacks and latinos no matter what and the possible republican candidates are all rubbish.

Also obama is definately gonna win Florida, Cali, Michigan and without michigan and florida I don;t think any republican can win

People can't steal? And it's not stealing. We KNOW the government is taking taxes from us. We either accept it, or stop paying and leave the country (an option few people seem comfortable with). We would not have twice as much money without taxes. American tax rates are far below 50%. If I were Canadian or Swedish, THEN you'd have an argument. And yet Denmark, a socialist country with tax-paid healthcare (over 50% tax rate) AND education, is the happiest one in the world.

The prices we Americans pay for what isn't covered by taxes (namely education and healthcare) takes out FAR more of our money than taxes. And the loans I take out to cover my education since it ISN'T tax-paid charge interest every year. And I paid for my first two years free and clear. AND I had a lot of grants. AND my degree in psychology is actually costing me money now that I'm in college, because after a four-year degree, grants are no longer available to me. So if you want a shot at any career of real prosperity, your education comes directly out of your own pocket, or from loans, which cost even more money. So no, I don't think I'd be twice as rich without taxes.

And taxes pay for shit like the roads we drive on, parks we sit at, and all the other shit we don't have to do ourselves. To quote Lewis Black, "I don't want to get a call at three in the morning with someone shouting, 'Lewis! The George Washington Bridge is out! Bring a shovel!' Then I'd get there with my shovel and they'd say, 'Wrong shovel, asshole!'"

While some taxes are always going to be bitched about in some form, they allow progress at a much faster rate. Because left to our greedy natural devices, none of us would wanna help out the other guy.

[jazze]

Why don't you move to Denmark then instead of forcing me to pay for all your "shit"?

Or North Korea, I hear their government controls everything too

[lubi]

Why don't you move to Denmark then instead of forcing me to pay for all your "shit"?

Or North Korea, I hear their government controls everything too

You could move to the UAE. Also a dreadful place, but in different ways.

[jazze]

Most of the world through most of history have had dreadful governments, thats why its such a shame that the US is following suit.

Anyways, your GREED demanding that others pay for you is going to ruin your country.

Like I said: Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Portugal, then Ireland again, Spain, Belgium, UK, USA etc until the whole game is finished and all those governments go BROKE and you're all POOR and helpless.

[lubi]

Most of the world through most of history have had dreadful governments, thats why its such a shame that the US is following suit.

Anyways, your GREED demanding that others pay for you is going to ruin your country.

Like I said: Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Portugal, then Ireland again, Spain, Belgium, UK, USA etc until the whole game is finished and all those governments go BROKE and you're all POOR and helpless.

Do you live on the moon or something? What's with "you're all POOR and helpless"?

It's not really demanding that others pay for me - for what it's worth, since I've been working full-time I think I've had the police round once and went to the doctor's with a minor shoulder injury. I'm not planning to have any children, so I'm hardly reliant on the state. However, I'm not arrogant enough to think that the life that I enjoy is all my own work - I'm lucky enough to have been born in a clean hospital, went to state-funded schools and live in a society that values what I'm good at to a sufficient degree that I can get by. If I'd been born in a tribe of hunter-gatherers back in the day, no-one would have cared that I can conjugate an irregular verb...

By the way, I'd be interested to know why you think this downturn is any worse than the previous ones? Why are we in danger of Zimbabwe-style inflation? Why will the whole game be finished?

[jazze]

By the way, I'd be interested to know why you think this downturn is any worse than the previous ones? Why are we in danger of Zimbabwe-style inflation? Why will the whole game be finished?

Because the next bubble to burst is the US Dollar and paper money. There is no way any of this new money created out of thin air can be paid back. Remember Mugabe and his banker Gono (who signed my 100 trillion zim dollar note ) printed money out of thin air to pay off loans.



90s had the .com bubble, that burst and they inflated the housing bubble which semi-burst in 08, and now we have a US dollar bubble. When that bursts there is nothing government can do to keep it inflated, and when your money is worthless you become poor and the government ceases to function.





The banking system will freeze, no one will be able to acces their money or be paid.

The chinese have 1trn USD in reserves, they might get pissed off and start a war...who knows?

Its how all empires end.

They over extend miltarily, then debase their currency until its worthless. Romans did it, Greeks did it, Byzantines did it, Germans did it and had hyperinflation in 1920s.

[Parsifal]

Because left to our greedy natural devices, none of us would wanna help out the other guy.

"All people, while they are awake, are in one common world; but each of them, when he is asleep, is in a world of his own."
Plutarch

[jazze]

Because left to our greedy natural devices, none of us would wanna help out the other guy.

"All people, while they are awake, are in one common world; but each of them, when he is asleep, is in a world of his own."
Plutarch

I disagree. People are evolved with the purpose of survival. If we didn't have nanny governments, we would need community and friends etc to survive. We would have to help them to help ourselves.

Everyone wonders why there is no community spirit anymore and why no one knows their neighbours in big cities. Its because of nanny governments.

All we have is our brains and our communication. We can't survive on our own.

[Parsifal]

and now we have a US dollar bubble.

Wednesday, April 6, 2011

€1 = US$1.4336
£1 = US$1.6332
US$1 = ¥85.47

It looks like the dollar is more on the skids rather than experiencing a bubble.

Because left to our greedy natural devices, none of us would wanna help out the other guy.

"All people, while they are awake, are in one common world; but each of them, when he is asleep, is in a world of his own."
Plutarch

I disagree. People are evolved with the purpose of survival. If we didn't have nanny governments, we would need community and friends etc to survive. We would have to help them to help ourselves.

Everyone wonders why there is no community spirit anymore and why no one knows their neighbours in big cities. Its because of nanny governments.

All we have is our brains and our communication. We can't survive on our own.

You are delusional my friend.

Disagree all you like.

[jazze]

I will disagree all I like. I know I'm right.

If you had read my statement you would know that I mean the dollar will go DOWN. The bubble is they have printed so many dollars, that when it bursts the VALUE of the dollar will go DOWN. Hence making you poorer.

Look at gold at 1460usd and silver at 39usd

[Parsifal]

You speak in the future tense: "will go down".

It's already down.
Unless you think it's going to go through the floor. Doubtful.

[Mister R]

I don’t think the Obama re-election is quite as cut and dry as it perhaps should be although that may change as and when we find out who the Republicans nominate. It’s entirely possible (if not basically guaranteed) that the Republican Party will shoot themselves in the foot come the primaries and gift a second term to Obama particularly if a candidate outside of the obvious front runners doesn’t emerge. Although having said that it seems as if Obama may have some problems getting people to turn out for him a second time around given how lacklustre his first term has been – and I think his first re-election campaign video sums up just how uninspiring his Presidency has ultimately been thus far.

[AdrienAsche]

Because left to our greedy natural devices, none of us would wanna help out the other guy.

"All people, while they are awake, are in one common world; but each of them, when he is asleep, is in a world of his own."
Plutarch

I don't actually agree with that. Was following the OP's "logic." I believe some people can and do like to help others. Like myself.

[Parsifal]

Plutarch is a well-regarded philosopher.

[AdrienAsche]

Plutarch is a well-regarded philosopher.

Whoops. I meant I don't agree with my own line about greedy human nature. But I've put my foot in my mouth enough in this section of FMF. I don't know why I think I can keep up.